and increase in worker productivity, workers should benefit from these changes, not just large corporations and their stockholders. >> senator bernie sanders, always a pleasure, sir. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. he foresaw a day were the prime problem of american capitalism would be leisure, what to do with all of the leisure time, because he thought we would be sitting around, but it didn't work out that way. that is all in on this wednesday night. good evening, alex. >> it sure didn't work out that way. >> no, it did not. maybe we will get there with ai. >> at what cost? thank you, my friend. thank you to you at home for joining me this evening. in the summer of 2004, the war in iraq was raging. fighting had intensified and evidence of american torture had just come to light.

democrats were promising a new direction for the war, and to make their case, they had just nominated a decorated war veteran to be there nominee, a man who had been awarded the silver star, the bronze star, and three purple hearts for valor in combat. >> thank you. i'm john kerry, and i am reporting for duty. [ cheers and applause ] >> senator john kerry made his military service in vietnam essential part of his campaign for president that year. in the weeks after he accepted the democratic nomination, kerry consistently led the incumbent, resident george w. bush in the polls, but then in august, everything changed. that was when these campaign ads started airing. >> i served with john kerry.

>> i served with john kerry. >> john kerry has not been honest about what happened in vietnam. >> he is lying about his record. >> is a central image of john kerry's campaign, the candidate, literally, wrapping his arms around his vietnam friends, but now republicans are challenging his war record with other vietnam veterans. none of them served on kerry's boat, claiming that he did not earn his medals. >> they were the swift boat veterans for truth ads, and they were one of, if not the most impactful and most dishonest ad campaigns in presidential history. for weeks, the national news covered the story, comparing different accounts of john kerry's war record. eventually, it was revealed that the swift boat veterans stories about senator kerry did not line up with the official record, but by that point, the damage had been done. the ads had aired across multiple swing states. president bush opened up a wide lead in the polls, and kerry's

campaign never recovered. the phrase, swift boating, has been used to describe unfair political attacks, but the impact of that ad, the impact of that campaign went well beyond re-electing george bush and broadening our political lexicon, because the people behind that campaign continued to test the boundaries of conservative politics and shape them for years to come. among the top contributors to the swift boat campaign were people like the late bob perry, an instrumental figure. instrumental in turning america's evangelical movement into a conservative voting base. also, harlan crow, the man who has been in the news recently for his lavish patronage of supreme court justice clarence thomas. patronage that includes luxury vacations and private plane flights, and questionable real estate purchases. two of the central players in the swiftboat affair were these men, john o'neill and jerome corsi. they co-authored the book,

unfit for command. that would become the main source for many of the false or misleading accusations against senator kerry. john o'neill went on to become a director of one of the conservative movement's most prominent anti-islam groups, the david horwitz freedom center, which focuses on the efforts of the radical left and it's islamic allies to destroy american values. jerome corsi went on to become one of the leading proponents of the birther conspiracy, which baselessly claimed that barack obama was not born in the united states. he later became a bureau chief for alex jones's info wars. but, of all the controversial conservatives involved in the swiftboat smear, there is one man, who is credited with being its mastermind. his name is chris lawson vida. as new york magazine puts it, it was he who turned the fringe allegations into a campaign, funded by millions of dollars

and shadowy contributions. where is chris lacivita today? where is he? well, he is running, pretty much, everything. chris lacivita currently serves as donald trump's top political adviser. he has been described as the campaigns defective campaign manager. lacivita was the brains behind the trump campaign efforts to smother ron desantis is presidential campaign while it was still in its infancy, now, in addition to his prominent role on the trump campaign, mr. lacivita has a new job, leading trumps takeover of the republican national committee. according to the washington post, trumps team, led by lacivita, is embarking on the political equivalent of shock and awe. senior leadership at the rnc has been entirely replaced, or reassigned, while dozens of lower ranking officials, including state directors, were either fired or told to reapply for their jobs. the firings were done by lacivita. among the people lacivita has

hired as replacements, his lawyer, christina bob. she is on the left. a former reporter for the right- wing news channel oweh and, and a outspoken election denier. she will now be the senior counsel for election integrity. election integrity being the rights preferred vehicle for engaging in voter intimidation and claims of voter fraud. those are some of the changes that we know of at this moment. but, what does it mean, really, quite practically, that the guy behind the swift smear is running another presidential campaign? new york magazine suggests that kerry's past filled with trickery and lies provides a template for how he will go after joe biden and the democrats. not by attacking what is perceived as biden's weaknesses, but his strengths. joining me now is michael share, a political reporter for the washington post that reported that story about trumps

takeover of the rnc. also with me is former rnc chair, michael steele. michael steele, let me first ask you about the appointment of chris lacivita, famous for the swiftboat campaign, and subsequent, very intense, to be euphemistic, conservative campaigns -- what do you think the practical effect will be on the trump campaign as we enter the general election? >> it's less the practical effect on the trump campaign, but the practical effect the trump campaign has on everything else. it is the shock and awe. it is the idea of creating damage that will come in short bursts and longer bursts, that cannot be contained. it is an asymmetrical political game, which i have been telling folks, these guys have been playing for the last six or seven years, and now, it will

come to fruition in this cycle, because it all matters right now. it all has to work right now because when they get the power back, that's how the rest of it is done. lacivita going to the rnc is a way to have him straddle two universes, have his role in the campaign diminished, obviously, because of the requirements by law, but also, having his ear and hands on the levers of power inside the republican national committee, to make sure that the money, the structure, the infrastructure, the organization, and most essentially, which is what the firings were about, the personnel, the people are doing exactly what the design is. that design, again, asymmetrical , means that you don't know that it's going to be the same tomorrow as it is today, and that's one of the strengths.

the swift boating showed, and what we have seen from trump, particularly, in this election cycle. this is not 2016, folks. it's not even 2020, trust me. >> i want to get back to that, but the importance of what's happening at the rnc, michael, which he reported on, so hopefully, today -- the bloodletting has been swift and it has been vicious, and it is, effectively, trump at all costs. i understand that from the perspective of donald trump, and to some degree, chris lacivita, but what about the republican party? not everybody has a last name trump. what are the applications for other republicans running? >> there are two things to know about chris lacivita and the way that trump has been running his campaign. it's a far more competent campaign that we saw in 2016 or 2020, it is top-down, it's organized, they have a plan, they know what they are doing. there is not the personnel turnover that we saw in the

last two cycles, so far. they went through the primaries very smoothly. chris, with susie wiles, has and a key part of that. the defining feature of chris lacivita is, he is a combatant. he wants to be in the fight, and he is fighting hard. you have seen the style of how he has taken over the rnc. it's normal for a nominee or presumptive nominee to take over the national party at this point, but chris lacivita this week, went in and really cleared house in a dramatic way. he made a lot of people in the building upset. there is concern, as you mentioned, about down valley republicans having the same benefits. he is closing community centers in some communities, and reassigning that money and that effort to be more focused on trump. now, lacivita will say that trump is at the top of the ticket. when trump wins, republicans will win up-and-down the ballots, that is the most important thing. what we don't know is how it's

going to affect the state level, and we will see how the senate and the house campaigns come along with these changes. >> i want to talk about that, early voting outreach. that seems like something you might not want to do, and yet, it fits absolutely in line with what republicans have been advocating under the banner of donald trump for several years now. michael, how much of an investment how much is that cutting off your nose to spite your face? sorry, michael steele. >> sorry, michael. it's all of that. oh, yeah, let's put everything behind winning the presidency. you are going to let governors hangout? what about governors in purple states? what about candidates in purple districts? how do they navigate a toxic candidate at the top of the ticket like donald trump? where you know, that candidate is going to need democratic and independent voters to support them, but now, all the focus and emphasis is on trump, so

what do you think and who do you think those candidates are going to be talking about? and so, it is a strategy about one person, because that's how donald trump wants it to be. that's why his daughter-in-law is running the rnc. that's why putin is running the rnc. that's why watley was picked to run the rnc. the other side of the scenario is that when trump loses this election, or if trump loses this election, you are going to have the same narrative around stolen elections, a rigged election, all of that, and he will have the bodies in place to prosecute that case better and more effectively from that point forward, which he did not have less time, because, oh, i dunno, people actually believed the constitutional oath they took and their responsibility to the country to uphold the election results, and that got in the way. trump has largely cleared the

way, and the cost will be to the rnc and the candidates running across the country in various state races and statewide races that are going to have to figure out how to find the resources and infrastructure they need to be successful, because if it ain't about trump, it certainly won't be about them. >> michael scherer, michael still mix a great point, which is, when you're talking about election integrity, as i said earlier, that is about voter intimidation, but it is an insurance policy against a lost election, which is we can claim voter fraud, and now he has the ambassadors, if you will, in place, christina bobb chief among them. can you give me a sense of what the election integrity efforts might entail, or the expectations that christina bobb will be an effective general on that front? >> i think that christina will be the front person on that

front, and she will be on tv a lot. she will be speaking to the base and carrying the president's message, which we have known for three years now, which is any election he is not performed well and is a fraud. i think there is a real effort here to do what a lot of republicans feel the rnc did not do well in 2020 up to the election day and after election day. up to the election day, republicans felt like they were wiped out with questions of early voting, lots of questions about signature verification, voter i.d. there is not much time left, but the rnc wants to go back in and relitigate that stuff. there was a lawsuit filed today in michigan, in which the rnc is asking the state of michigan to clear their voter rolls, because they say there are too many old names on the voter rolls. interestingly, they brought in charlie spieth, another name we haven't mentioned. he is one of the most respected republican election lawyers. he was the guy behind jeb bush is super pac, the guy behind

ron desantis's campaign. the guy behind mitt romney's super pac. he is being brought in because they believe he actually knows how to do this well, whereas, i think christina bobb, she is well known among the best -- base, well-known on tv, but i don't think she is going to be the legal mind behind the scenes deciding how to prosecute this. >> i believe everybody the quote from new york magazine. "in 2016, the trump campaign was a shambolic operation. by 2020, you had a more professionalized operation, but it was effectively being led by trump's web designer, and now we get to see what happens when you bring in some of the most shrewd, calculating, and ruthless operators in the party." an experiment of the national stage. michael scherer, michael steele, the two michael's, thank you for your time today. >> we have much more ahead, including, how are you going to learn the moves for beyonci's

texas hold 'em dance if congress bands the app? more portly, what are the applications for american politics if that communication line goes dead. but first, the fulton county district attorney's sprawling election interference case just got a little more narrow. we are going to talk about that and what it means for donald trump with melissa redman, former fulton county district attorney, coming up next. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had

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so, look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes , which is one more than we have, because we won the state. >> i just want to find 11,780 votes, just enough to overturn the georgia 2020 election results. that was the now notorious january 2021 phone call between president donald trump and georges secretary of state, brad raffensperger. it is also a central part of the sprawling election conspiracy case brought by fulton county district attorney, fani willis, but today, that case got a little less sprawling when judge scott mcafee dismissed six of the 41 counts, citing lack of detail. and, one of those counts is the

one that specifically calls out trump and his chief of staff, mark meadows, for the january 2nd call to brad raffensperger. this does not mean that trump is out of the woods, legally speaking. 41 of the criminal counts are very much intact, but all of this is happening as we await judge mcafee's ruling on whether or not the ableist will be disqualified from her own case, and the judge has said that he hopes to rule on that matter by friday. msnbc legal analyst, melissa redman, joins me now. she is a former fulton county district attorney, and a professor. thank you for joining me tonight. i'm eager to get your professional opinion on whether these charges, these counts seemed overly broad, or lacking definition in your mind, when they were first charged? does mcafee's dismissal seem unusual to you? >> well, it is a bit unusual in that those are filed very often

in criminal cases. they are rarely granted, so basically, the defense has to show that the crime has not been alleged with enough specificity for them to be put on notice of what they have to defend against, so for these defenses, all of which involved solicitation, a violation of their oath of office by a public official, there is not enough of -- information in the oath for the state to allege how the particular conduct violated that term of the oath. different public official in georgia have different oats, and more -- some are more specific than others. it just so happens that the oath taken by the house of representatives and senators in georgia, as well as the governor, is very broad, and alleges that she will support the constitution of the state and the state of georgia, which means that of all of the terms and clauses and articles, they would have to show or put in the indictment which one of

those, asking for the alternate slate of electors to be appointed, or for the votes to be found, which one of those clauses that conduct violated, such that these people were being asked to violate terms of their oath of office. >> you know far more about this than me, but it just seems like upholding the state constitution would prevent election fraud, right? asking someone to find the votes to overturn the election seems like asking that person to violate their oath of office, but i am not a lawyer, and i have never worked in the state of georgia, but i understand there are legal underpinnings to all of that. i do wonder if you think that d.a. willis is tenacious, like the other people on the national stage, and i wonder if you think she is going to let these go in the name of keeping this case, already delayed and

waylaid, to some degree, on track, or whether she will fight mcafee on this and take another turn at these charges? >> i think it will depend on the evidence they have, and of course, we don't have the full copy of the discovery that has been provided. you can tell from the discovery that has been provided in the evidence, that the state intends to use, how that oath was violated. so, the defense is on notice, but they would have to actually allege that in the indictment, and whether she would be able to do that would govern her decision on whether to appeal to judge mcafee, who has indicated in his order, that if she asks for a certificate of review, he would be inclined to grant it, however, the thing about rico that prosecutors love is, you don't need those counts for this indictment, for her to proceed on the exact same case without proving those subsequent offenses, so i actually don't think she will appeal to i think she may be

willing to let those counts go, and just move forward with the ricoh, and using that conduct as overt acts, and she will still be allowed to do that. >> the substance and the power of that broader case remains intact. trump is not out of hot water by any stretch of the imagination, but there is the looming question we are supposed to get resolution to on friday, which is, does d.a. fani willis stay on this case? do you read anything -- i know that judges aren't supposed to be political, but it seems clear that politics is very much on the horizon here, and i wonder if you read anything into judge mcafee's decision to give a few points to trump, if you will, on the dismissal of these counts, with the expectation that he may be handing a win to fani willis on friday. is that me just wearing a tinfoil hat, or could there be some legitimacy to that? >> i don't think you can read anything at all into this,

because if you think about how the case is playing out, all of the motions that have been filed, and they are slowly working their way through hearing those motions, and this was not the only motion to dismiss. there are other motions to dismiss various counts still pending, that judge mcafee still has to rule on, so it looked to me like he has methodically gone through the case, and in the hearings he's helped, the supplemental brief submitted by each party after the hearing, and issuing orders as he gets to them. this particular motion was held, i want to say, a couple weeks before the motion to disqualify, so it makes sense that he is going through and issuing the orders as he gets to those motions, but i don't think we can tell one way or the other what that indicates, as far as how he intends to rule on the motion to disqualify, other than i do believe if he is willing to grant immediate review for this, that may indicate his willingness to have these issues resolved before the case

goes to trial, so whichever way he rules on the motion to dismiss, perhaps, he would also be willing to give either side a certificate of immediate review, which would further delay the case. i think the only thing we can read is, it's very unlikely that this case is going to be tried this year. >> melissa redmon keeping me in line, giving us a hard truth about what's happening in fulton county. thank you for your time and wisdom tonight. we really appreciate you. >> thank you. we have more had the sour, including hungarian autocrat, viktor orban. but first, a rare moment of bipartisanship today in congress could lead to the end of tiktok. congressman jamaal bowman joined me on set to discuss the potential political fallout of that decision. stay with us. i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty.

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if you haven't already heard, the u.s. government is trying to permanently shut down tiktok. >> tiktok is got so desperate that they are sending out sos messages on the app, begging people to call their u.s. congressional representatives. >> hi, i'm calling to ask about the tiktok on the >> please boat -- vote no on the tiktok ban. >> call your representative,

tell them to vote no, and if they don't, you're going to vote them out in the primaries. >> lastly, the social media app, tiktok, urged its 170 million american users to call their representatives in congress. by noon the same day, the phone lines for members of congress were overwhelmed with calls, mostly from teenagers. some congressional aides said their offices received hundreds of calls in a matter of hours, but despite, or maybe because of how much tiktok clearly matters to young americans, today, the house overwhelmingly passed the bill that all of these tiktok users urged their representatives not to pass. hr 7521. i should say that despite how tiktok framed the bill to its users, this is not an immediate tiktok ban. the way this bill is written, tiktok's parent company, bytedance, has six months to sell the company to a buyer approved by the u.s. government , or it will be banned from app stores, and therefore, gone.

but, before we get to the six month countdown, the bill still has to pass the senate, and that it has to be signed into law by president biden, and the politics involved in passing those hurdles are not exactly straightforward. this bill has made a lot of very weird bedfellows. we have democrats like maxwell frost lined up against the bill with the likes of marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz. they all have freedom of speech issues with the bill, although definitely, not the same freedom of speech issues, and the proponents of the bill are also a rather unusual group. nancy pelosi is working with far right rabble-rouser, chip roy. they are united by concerns that the chinese government may be using tiktok as a vehicle to meddle in american politics, and as with the rest of our politics, the whole thing is made even more complicated a messy by donald trump. back when trump was president, he tried to ban tiktok via executive order, but now trump

has reversed course completely and come out in favor of tiktok, so it's all fairly indecipherable, but if there is one thing that everyone on all sides of the issue can agree on here, it's that tiktok matters. if you don't use tiktok, it could be easy to write the app off as just a place where young people teach each other beyonce dancers and make jokes that boomers don't get, but the app is kind of a modern public square. it's filled with content like this, about news and politics. >> hey, everyone. >> these dark red states, abortion is already outlawed there. >> as a registered democrat, no, i'm not voting for joe biden. >> want to know a great reason to vote for joe biden in 2024? the supreme court. >> today i am drinking my top 10 reasons why joe biden truly sucks. >> how is the best case scenario joe biden? >> like it or not, tiktok is

currently what is energizing young voters. american teens spend an average of an hour and a half on tiktok every day, and poll after poll has shown that tiktok may be the top news source for gen z americans. it really is worth emphasizing just how significant it is that the app got a sizable chunk of america's gen z population to pick up a phone and call a stranger in congress. i'm not trying to malign america's youth, but statistically speaking, phone calls are not their thing. they do not like phone calls, so yes, today's vote in the house was about the future of tiktok, but in that, it was also about the future of our political landscape, and in the immediate future, it's about getting out the vote for the november election. we are going to talk about all of that and more with representative jamaal bowman, right after the break. ♪

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trump? two reasons. the first appears to be cash. trump recently hosted jeff yes at his club, who is an investor in bytedance, the parent company of tiktok, and trump is seeking his support in the presidential race. the second reason is voters. trump ally kellyanne conway has been advocating for tiktok on behalf of the club for growth, the conservative organization, where it so happens, billionaire jeff yass puts a lot of his money . >> here are three reasons why if you are young person like me, you should vote for trump. >> would like trump, because he actually stood up to you, and also exposed you. you want socialism. we don't. >> four more years, please, four more years. >> but, donald trump and his party are not the only ones

defending tiktok. some house democrats voted against the ban today, and why they may not share donald trump's reasons or motivations, they too think that banning tiktok is a very bad idea. joining me now is one of those democrats, jamaal bowman of new york. congressman bowman, thank you for being here. i'm sorry you had to witness some of those tiktok videos, but first, tell me why you voted against the tiktok ban. >> once again, congress is trying to shove a bill down our throats within just a few days, or we are going to ban tiktok. let's hurry up and get this done. first of all, it's moving too quickly. secondly, trying to get bytedance to sell within 180 days is unreasonable, completely unreasonable. third, free speech. there are people who use tiktok to -- they have small businesses on tiktok, they use it to build community, so it's a free speech issue, and fourth, when are you going to have a conference of conversation about all of social media and all of the problems on social media,

including our data being sold on the open market to china and other nations without our consent, without our knowledge, so we need to talk about privacy. we need to talk about mental health. we need to talk about all of social media. why do we continue to scapegoat tiktok? especially, when i have seen not enough evidence to tell me that at the national security issue, and so that's why i voted no on the bill. >> i do want to talk about the social media aspect, the user realities, the political implications of taking away the platform that hundreds of millions of people, there were 170 million americans, the youngs are all over it, and it's the primary channel for communication with america's youth. as a democrat, and someone who seeks re-election, and someone heading into a big election year, what do you think the implications are of taking down tiktok? >> it doesn't make sense to me.

young voters already feel disenfranchised, because we do a horrible job of reaching out to young voters, connecting to them and listening to them. tiktok is a platform where young voters of community with each other, they are learning a lot more about politics. they are learning more about their elected officials. votes their elected officials have taken, what we all stand for, and they are sharing information, whether it's related to foreign policy, domestic policy, childcare, education, whatever the issues are, they are building their own community and building their own political power. why are we then going to disenfranchise them even further, especially when young voters have a tendency to vote democrat, if we go about engaging them in doing it the right way? having this discussion and trying to ban it, or almost banning it makes no sense at this time. >> we look at the numbers of the latest polling, the head-to- head matchups between donald trump and joe biden. young voters under 35, biden leads 52-40 that's a four point lead. we are talking about young people here. this is a group that has

recently been overwhelmingly in support of the democratic party and its platforms. that is, i think, for democrats, and uncomfortably narrow margin, and you talk about the democratic support in community's of color, black voters, hispanic voters, latino voters, many of whom are not going to traditional media for their news and information. that is a staggering, staggering curve downwards, and i wonder how essential platforms, including social media, are going to be in this election, to bring those folks back into the fold, and telling the story of democrats and the white house. >> that's why you saw such a diverse representation of who voted no on the bill. it was not just the squad. it was moderate and more conservative democrats. we had the ranking member of the house intelligence committee, intelligence committee, vote no on this particular bill, so you have these diverse responses to this, because we understand the

implications politically, socially, and in terms of the entire country, so we need young voters. we need young voters of color. we need to engage them as much as possible. we need to not disenfranchise them, and we need to respect their voices and how they are engaging all over social media. they are not watching msnbc as we would like them to. >> but, they are welcome too, congressman. >> but, they are not, they are on social media, tiktok. how are we using tiktok to engage them? let me say one other thing. our biggest issue when it comes to national security is ourselves. we hurt ourselves more because we ignore the needs of the american people. we push through a tiktok ban, what you aren't doing anything on foreign policy aide, or not enough. you aren't doing anything on affordable housing, you are not doing enough on childcare, you are doing enough on the issues that americans care about quickly. we can never turn the corner on those issues. >> let me ask you, you've said that should not be given any hard evidence or sufficient evidence that this is a real

national security threat, any more than any other social media is a national security threat. do you would all worry about the meme application of american politics, that that's what we are acquiescing to? anybody can put up their content, and hopefully, the truthful stuff rises to the top and goes most viral. it's a betters game. >> yes, i am. tiktok is way better than twitter, then facebook, and some of the other platforms, so i am worried about the bite sized memification of how social media operates, but what i've seen on tiktok is the depth of content and the depth of scholarship exists there that i haven't seen on other platforms. twitter right now, is a cesspool. you send out a tweet, and the next thing you know, you have the far right white nationalists attacking you for all kinds of nonsense, and lies and disinformation, misinformation live on that platform, and facebook. facebook also, and i have been

told this. facebook is trying to use more of our data than anywhere else, by far, but we are talking about banning facebook, and facebook wasn't located in what russia did in 2016, so what are we talking about? >> well, obviously, there needs to be a broader and more transparent conversation, and in the meantime, enjoy learning the steps to the beyonce video, texas hold 'em, is it's all over tiktok. congressman jamaal bowman, thank you so much for your time and thoughts. really great to have you here. still ahead this evening, trumps strongman obsession reaches a new low. we are going to get into the very real fallout from the trump orban , putin triumvirate, coming up with ben rhodes, next. [stomach growling] it's nothing...

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russian president vladimir putin is days away from another election. but is expected to keep him in power for another six years. that is happening as ukraine loses ground in its war with russia because of ammunition shortages while the u.s. congress continues to do nothing. two dueling attempts to force a vote on ukraine eight are making their way through congress right now. neither has a strong chance of leading to an actual vote. according to hungarian prime minister viktor orban, who just met with donald trump last week, the presumptive republican presidential nominee told viktor orban he will not give a penny to help ukraine. viktor orban concluded "therefore, the war will end because it is obvious ukraine cannot stand on its own feet." joining is former deputy national security advisor for the obama white house, ben rhodes. there was a lot of consternation leading up to this viktor orban, trump meeting that viktor orban would be an interlocutor for vladimir putin. it feels like that is exactly what happened. how do you see the sort of

fallout from that meeting last week? >> it is not subtle at all, alex. i don't usually plug things that i wrote a book a couple of years ago that is about this phenomenon of trump, orban and vladimir putin and what they share in common, which is a sense of their domestic politics and the kind of leaders they want to be at home and therefore the kind of world they want to live in. putin is at the far end of the authoritarian spectrum. he has transitioned his country from something that was trying to be democracy to essentially a one man, one rule dictatorship. orban is in the middle. he has turned this country that was a liberal democracy and a soft autocracy where there is one party rule. trump wants to be these guys. but, the price of that is signing on to this no holds barred, no respect for sovereignty, no care for democracy foreign-policy of putin. putin is at the vanguard of this triangle of sadness

between these three guys. it was clear to me orban has been talking to putin and he walks out of the meeting in mar- a-lago with a commitment from donald trump to throw ukraine under the bus and joined the autocrats club if the election goes away in november. >> i was thinking, we had a conversation with jacob pellegrin, last week, who made the important point that in terms of historic parallels, in and around world war ii, there was a faction of americans who were isolationists and he made the point that isolationism is often a misnomer because it veils fascism. and a lot of the people against the u.s. entry into world war ii were pro-hitler, they were pro- . i wonder if you think the same is true in the modern day, whether the resistance to aid in ukraine he trades a proto-or pro-fascist attitude inside the republican party. >> there's no question in my mind it does, alex. viktor orban has been

transparent. he has declared he is the vanguard of the liberal democracy, which is a contradiction in terms. he has embraced the reality he is a far right nationalist who demonizes the other, be it immigrants or liberal elites or whoever is in his firing line that given day. he has used his power to essentially silence critics and ensure his party remains in power. he has essentially a mussolini agenda. trump and biden at mar-a-lago, this is the same thing as if you had invited mussolini for a weekend getaway in the 1930s. let's be clear, not giving ukraine aid is a choice. you can call it isolationism but it is a choice to cut these people off and allow vladimir putin to run roughshod over them when that serves no other interest other than the kind of continued momentum behind this

strongman autocracy in the world, which the republican party seems to hold in such high esteem now. so, we have to recognize it is a choice to cut the cord on ukraine in this manner and what it is going to do is put wind in the sales of not just vladimir putin but this brand of autocracy we see gaining traction in lots of parts of the world. >> if you are a would-be autocrat and you are looking at the weekend plans around the world, vladimir putin is going to win in a sham election another six years in office, ukraine is facing ammunition shortages on the battlefield. the war is looking bleaker and bleaker for the forces of democracy. it is a dark horizon we are gazing out against. yet people in washington seem to be largely content to do nothing about it. the fact that it is unlikely for democrats to get a basic simple majority on a discharge petition to fund this is staggering. >> let's not forget, alex, the guy who appeared with putin in billboards for his reelection was benjamin netanyahu, would like to be part of this club as well. look, the reality is if you talk to people around the world, talk to people in europe, they are astonished and panicked and anxiety ridden about the fact that the united states, the money that is going to be spent to purchase these weapons for ukraine is spent in the united states.

it is money for our defense industrial base. we sent the money to u.s. states to build the kind of shells and ammunition needed by the ukrainians and ship it over there. we are essentially cuddling, cutting the ukrainians loose and cutting the cord on funding that supports u.s. jobs and industry, albeit in the defense industry, for what ? so that we can align ourselves with putin. not only does not have the u.s. retreating from its role in the world and standing up for democracies like ukraine that are under threat , it also is signaling a choice. united states is moving into this other column here. the vladimir putin column. it is not just isolationism, it is making a choice about which side we are on in this continued violence in the struggle between democracy and autocracy. that has people around the world much more exercised than in washington, where it seems like this is just another political game. another government shutdown, another fight over the debt ceiling. no, if we don't deliver this money